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Bad News, .40 S&W Lost Its Charm Good News, This Means Bargains


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#41 OFFLINE   Retcop

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Posted May. 16 2018 - 06:09 AM

I always said the .40S&W was a solution looking for a problem to solve. I have no problem with my 1911s and my Hi-Powers. So I always have and will continue to carry one or the other. As far as I am concerned they are interchangeable.

 

I must disagree. At the time, many FBI agents could not handle the recoil and size of the 10mm.

9mm ammo had not risen to the performance level it has had for the last 5 years or so. 

The FBI wanted a larger caliber with hevier bullets in a frame size and with less recoil that more agents could shoot well.

The .4o fit the bill perfectly, and still does.

 

The 9mm, with the newest ammo now performs as well as the ,40. , recoils less, and the gun's carry more rounds.

The .40's had reached the end of their service life, and their was no reason not to go with the 9mm with the advances in ammo.

Just for one example, 9mm used to have a problem with windshields. With certain rounds, it no longer does.

 

This is no big mystery and does not mean that the .40 has suddenly become a bad round. 

The 9mm ammo can now check all the boxes, has other advantages, and it was time for new pistols. 

Win win win for a large department.  Does not mean everybody with a .40 suddenly has a piece of crap in their hands because the 

FBI no longer uses it....unless you are one of those guys.....




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#42 OFFLINE   newbe

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Posted May. 16 2018 - 08:52 AM

 
I must disagree. At the time, many FBI agents could not handle the recoil and size of the 10mm.
9mm ammo had not risen to the performance level it has had for the last 5 years or so. 
The FBI wanted a larger caliber with hevier bullets in a frame size and with less recoil that more agents could shoot well.
The .4o fit the bill perfectly, and still does.
 
The 9mm, with the newest ammo now performs as well as the ,40. , recoils less, and the gun's carry more rounds.
The .40's had reached the end of their service life, and their was no reason not to go with the 9mm with the advances in ammo.
Just for one example, 9mm used to have a problem with windshields. With certain rounds, it no longer does.
 
This is no big mystery and does not mean that the .40 has suddenly become a bad round. 
The 9mm ammo can now check all the boxes, has other advantages, and it was time for new pistols. 
Win win win for a large department.  Does not mean everybody with a .40 suddenly has a piece of crap in their hands because the 
FBI no longer uses it....unless you are one of those guys.....

Sounds like you made his argument FOR him! :laugh:


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#43 OFFLINE   Retcop

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Posted May. 16 2018 - 12:47 PM

Sounds like you made his argument FOR him! :laugh:

I don't agree. I think the point you are missing is that until the ammo/bullet manufactures finally elevated 

the performance of the 9mm, that, IMHO, the .40 was an outstanding replacement.  I whole pot full of 

LE agencies agreed, that they could get better performance out of the .40 while maintaining a high capacity service size sidearm. Until these last years of improvement

helped the 9's terminal ballistics.  You must understand there is zero ego involved in this for me.

 

It is my opinion that the ammo maker's innovations have us to the point that there is hardly a difference between the 9mm, the ,40 S&W, and the .45 ACP when it comes to terminal ballistics and having the tendency to be "barrier blind".  This allows both LE agencies and individuals to put other factors higher up on the list, such as

amount of felt (and measured) recoil, the nature of that recoil, magazine capacity, and the sidearm being able to accommodate the variations of hand size. 

 

I have said in several other posts over the couple of years that personally, I have come to the conclusion that the 9mm has matured, and I now hold the opinion that their is not enough difference between the 9mm, the .40, and the ,45 regarding terminal ballistics to make any real world difference. I have stated in threads that my next house gun will be a 9mm, and I have already purchased Glock G19 magazines.  If I did not have so much money invested in .40 Speer Gold Dot (I bought 1,000 rounds on a hell of a sale)  I may own a 9mm. I don't own a 9mm. I have .380, .40, and .45, along with a .22 (of course) and even picked up a .32 ACP when there were not as many choices in micro pistols, and I needed something for deep cover when I was working plain clothes with the drug task force. 

 

I think the reason some of these caliber threads turn to crap, is that some guys (not many) insist on bring ego into the equation. 

They take the stance that "mine is better than yours" and if you don't have "the best" you are to be derided or laughed at.  

 

Being an old dog, I know enough to feel extremely fortunate to be around with all of these advancements in firearm technology from ammunition to firearm design.

We have sidearm and rifle performance that 10-20+ years ago would have cost many thousands for a custom made gun with years long waiting lists. It is amazing. 

 

9mm, .40, .45, they are all good, and it boils down to some tactical considerations and personal preferences.  I'm glad the 9mm has arrived. That does not cause me to "lose" any "argument".  

 

BTW: I think we could use a study of terminal ballistics of the 9mm as it is shot out of barrels that have ~2" of rifled barrel.

Fortunately bullet makers design ammo for short barrels to reduce recoil and muzzle flash.

I am unsure if they have put enough research to see how these bullets perform out of these micro barrels.

With so many people carrying these tiny pistols, I would like to see some large sampling of how these bullets are performing

in these very small guns. We need more info, IMO.  

 

John




#44 ONLINE   Rampy

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Posted May. 16 2018 - 01:33 PM

Yep, exactly. The FBI found they had to many problems with the 10mm and needed a watered down cartridge....thus the 40 was given birth, a compromise between the 9mm and the 45, excels at nothing and marginally better than the 9mm in some ways as marginally better than the 45 in other ways & with today's bullet advancements from 1990 when the 40 short and weak was given birth......

 

And now the FBI has gone full circle, back to the 9mm G2 and Critical Defense +P ammo.......

 

I always said the .40S&W was a solution looking for a problem to solve. I have no problem with my 1911s and my Hi-Powers. So I always have and will continue to carry one or the other. As far as I am concerned they are interchangeable.




#45 OFFLINE   newbe

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Posted May. 16 2018 - 01:36 PM

I don't agree. I think the point you are missing is that until the ammo/bullet manufactures finally elevated 
the performance of the 9mm, that, IMHO, the .40 was an outstanding replacement.  I whole pot full of 
LE agencies agreed, that they could get better performance out of the .40 while maintaining a high capacity service size sidearm. Until these last years of improvement
helped the 9's terminal ballistics.  You must understand there is zero ego involved in this for me.
 
It is my opinion that the ammo maker's innovations have us to the point that there is hardly a difference between the 9mm, the ,40 S&W, and the .45 ACP when it comes to terminal ballistics and having the tendency to be "barrier blind".  This allows both LE agencies and individuals to put other factors higher up on the list, such as
amount of felt (and measured) recoil, the nature of that recoil, magazine capacity, and the sidearm being able to accommodate the variations of hand size. 
 
I have said in several other posts over the couple of years that personally, I have come to the conclusion that the 9mm has matured, and I now hold the opinion that their is not enough difference between the 9mm, the .40, and the ,45 regarding terminal ballistics to make any real world difference. I have stated in threads that my next house gun will be a 9mm, and I have already purchased Glock G19 magazines.  If I did not have so much money invested in .40 Speer Gold Dot (I bought 1,000 rounds on a hell of a sale)  I may own a 9mm. I don't own a 9mm. I have .380, .40, and .45, along with a .22 (of course) and even picked up a .32 ACP when there were not as many choices in micro pistols, and I needed something for deep cover when I was working plain clothes with the drug task force. 
 
I think the reason some of these caliber threads turn to crap, is that some guys (not many) insist on bring ego into the equation. 
They take the stance that "mine is better than yours" and if you don't have "the best" you are to be derided or laughed at.  
 
Being an old dog, I know enough to feel extremely fortunate to be around with all of these advancements in firearm technology from ammunition to firearm design.
We have sidearm and rifle performance that 10-20+ years ago would have cost many thousands for a custom made gun with years long waiting lists. It is amazing. 
 
9mm, .40, .45, they are all good, and it boils down to some tactical considerations and personal preferences.  I'm glad the 9mm has arrived. That does not cause me to "lose" any "argument".  
 
BTW: I think we could use a study of terminal ballistics of the 9mm as it is shot out of barrels that have ~2" of rifled barrel.
Fortunately bullet makers design ammo for short barrels to reduce recoil and muzzle flash.
I am unsure if they have put enough research to see how these bullets perform out of these micro barrels.
With so many people carrying these tiny pistols, I would like to see some large sampling of how these bullets are performing
in these very small guns. We need more info, IMO.  
 
John

I think you missed the point I was yanking your chain. :laugh:


#46 OFFLINE   gshayd

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Posted May. 16 2018 - 07:08 PM

It also means that the SIG Legion.40 S&W will be going on sale  :segrin:


Edited by gshayd, May. 16 2018 - 07:09 PM.

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#47 OFFLINE   gshayd

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Posted May. 16 2018 - 07:10 PM

the 9mm is for p*ssies who can't handle the .40 S&W recoil.   :lol:


Edited by gshayd, May. 21 2018 - 11:44 AM.

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#48 ONLINE   Rampy

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Posted May. 16 2018 - 08:57 PM

Want recoil, grab a 357magnum, or how about a 460 or 500 S&W.......love to dee ya packing a 3 in 460 as your concealed carry handgun :hysterical3: :hysterical3: :hysterical3:

 

It's well documented the recoil impulses of the 40 beat the pistol to death, but that's not a issue here as nobody shoots enough to worry about that....anywhoo, here again the FBI has well documented the flaws and weakness of the 40 & are going away from it...

 

Does not matter what caliber it is, it's what is between your ears that's important...the good old 130gr  RNL 38spl has killed more people with less rounds fired than the 40 cal has.....shooters need to do their job of bullet placement 1st and foremost.....2nd you need penetration, if the bullet does not go deep enough.....

 

But what do I know, I read lots of magazines and have had my concealed carry permit for almost 2 years now.... :tiphat: :tiphat: :tiphat:

 

the 9mm is for p*ssies who can't handle the .40 S&W recoil.




#49 OFFLINE   Retcop

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Posted May. 16 2018 - 09:04 PM

I think you missed the point I was yanking your chain. :laugh:

I know you were yanking my chain, my friend.

Do you really think I am that dense ? I did not miss anything.

 

I simply used it as an opportunity to further clarify myself,

and expand on  how I feel about this caliber debate.  The ego part

was very important, IMHO. Ego is one of the biggest impediments to learning

and reasoned debate.

 

If we could harness the energy that goes into this seemingly endless debate, we could create the first perpetual motion machine 

and rule the world.   :segrin:

 

We've advanced enough that all three round are all within a hair of each other in terminal ballistics. 

The individual preferences as to size, platform type, recoil, magazine capacity are all personal preferences 

and can and do change depending on the user and the use. 

That should be celebrated, not an opportunity to.....IDK what some folks are attempting to do,

except make asses of themselves.  

 

I actually take my "Shoot what you like; like what you shoot" motto seriously.

It is no secret here that one of my pet peeves is when someone jumps on another for what they shoot,

and talk high speed low drag celebrity trainers they  talk about in reverent tones like the Second Coming. 

 

I have actually had enough training and sat down and spoken with enough different trainers from active Army and EX specops guys and current and former LEO's who have gotten rich

because they know how to market their skill and background to know that no one has THE answer or answers. 

 

I also am serious as a heart attack when I say any trainer who purports that he has THE way, or his way is the BEST way is most likely a POS

and at the least, should be avoided at all costs.


Edited by Retcop, May. 16 2018 - 11:09 PM.



#50 ONLINE   Rampy

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Posted May. 16 2018 - 09:15 PM

Think I'll start carrying a Taurus PT-25, the .25acp was the caliber used by James Bond & thus it's an excellent round, small, comfortable and fits anywhere I want to conceal it. Best of all recoil is minimal and it's comfortable and fun to shoot.




#51 OFFLINE   Retcop

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Posted May. 16 2018 - 11:52 PM

Think I'll start carrying a Taurus PT-25, the .25acp was the caliber used by James Bond & thus it's an excellent round, small, comfortable and fits anywhere I want to conceal it. Best of all recoil is minimal and it's comfortable and fun to shoot.

Rampy,

If I were in the market for the smallest pistol available,

I would consider a .22 LR or a .22 magnum before a .25 ACP. 

A .22 LR standard velocity will completely penetrate a 1/2 inch pine board at over 200 yards fired from a 10-.22.

 

The .25 has proven to be an overall poor penetrator, especially of the human skull, where as the .22 LR usually has no problem with penetrating the skull,

especially at close ranges if you have need for a tiny "stick it in their ear" pistol or derringer. The .22 also has the advantage of usually not exiting the skull, but bouncing around inside, creating an instantaneous scrambling of the brain and quickly leading to incapacitation.  

 

Shoot both and see which you like better, but my personal preference would be the ,22. 

Now if you needed a really tiny gun, but were concerned with the inherent misfires associated with any rimfire ammo, the .32 ACP 

has proven to be a good penetrator of human skulls, and the centerfire ammo more reliable than rimfire.

But, as always, shoot what you like and like what you shoot.   

 

With the advent of affordable and dependable pocket pistols, courtesy of JMB, the .25 and the.32 ACP had quite a strong and lasting following in Europe and to a lessor degree, the US. They sold a ton in both places, glean from that what you will. America moved on to larger calibers like the .heavy duty .380 ACP more quickly, but the quintessential ,380 still came from Europe as we all know.

 

There is no doubt in my mind that these vest pocket pistols saved a lot of law-abiding people's lives on both sides of the pond when being harassed by the criminal element, sometimes just by its mere presence. This, of course was back in the day where the right of a person to go armed was not in question, but a gentleman was always discreet and comfortable.   I think Kleck's latest adjusted numbers on the  defensive use of handguns without a shot being fired was ~ 2 to 2.5 million times per year in the USA.  Divide that by 365. Some consider that number low.  

My understanding is the adjusted numbers came recently from a larger sampling that purportedly asked the question in a more accurate way. 


Edited by Retcop, May. 16 2018 - 11:55 PM.



#52 OFFLINE   gshayd

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Posted May. 21 2018 - 11:46 AM

Sorry Rampy I have given myself a holiday from you can't see your posts   :segrin:


Edited by gshayd, May. 21 2018 - 11:46 AM.

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