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So How Many Rounds out of a New Bore before You begin


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#21 ONLINE   redbarron06

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Posted May. 16 2018 - 06:56 PM

Don't be a gmor.


That’s great can I use that?

To the OPs question. I do not break a barrel in but rather more technicially speaking I build it up. With my brand new GA Presicsion FBI HRT rifle I followed in instructions presented in the Sniper 101 videos series. Basically what I am doing is building up a solid bearing of copper in the barrel so the the bullet is gliding on as much copper as possible during its trip down the tube. What I noticed was that my MV increased and my groups decreased as the copper bearing surface was built. I did this with standard ammo off the shelf while getting my scope in the general vicinity of the bulls eye. After about 60 rounds I had gained about 50 FPS and the size of the groups had halved. I then switched over to the ammo I was intending to shoot for the LD course I was going to attend. I noticed right away that while my scope was still close, the groups opened back up but as I continued to shoot the groups closed back up after about 15 rounds. Different manufacture of bullets so somewhat of a different recipie with the copper jacket but as the bearing surface built to match the copper I was sending down, the groups got better all the way down to less than 1/4 inch at 100 yards.

To this day I have yet to clean the copper out of that rifle and with almost 1000 rounds down through it I am still getting the same result. 8541 Tactical (former Marine Sniper and current LEO sniper) did a video of this a couple of years ago switching between Hornady and GMM. You can see an immediate increase in the group size from the same rifle but after 10-15 rounds it goes back to the size of the group with the previous ammo. I did however take another barrel that I had been using shot a test group, stripped the copper out and started shooting groups again with it. Same result and once again after about a dozen rounds the group came right back to where it was before the stripping.

Now if you want to call this barrel “break in” what ever but it isnt. First there is very little chance that anything other than erosion is happening when you shoot quality ammo down a quality barrel. Clean any preservative from it, shoot it a few times and clean the powder fowling but leaving the copper bearing surface will make better groups and higher MVs.
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#22 OFFLINE   Derk_digler24

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Posted May. 16 2018 - 08:31 PM

So according to You .More Barrels have been worn out by cleaning rather than by  Throating ?. ( erosion caused by direct impingement of gas and solid particles traveling across the bore surface.)
 
With Precision barrels such as Lija and Schnieder break in isn't as crucial as with other barrels  IMO . The a fore mentioned are pretty much hand lapped at factory but other off the shelf  barrel and Rifle manufacturers aren't as demanding or picky , their production orientated not precision driven   !.
 
As with any other subject there are  fiction and  tales then there are Facts with proven results , I shall stick with the latter ...

What's the military break in?


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#23 OFFLINE   Derk_digler24

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Posted May. 16 2018 - 08:34 PM

It's too bad my big trip this year is to my 50th high school reunion. I'd love to be there.  As fro teaching a class ..I'm not anymore talented than you guys I just paint my self in a good light.
 
My specialty is MATH and how to apply it to the gun. Plain and simple if the math is right and the aim is true, along with maybe twenty other things, it'll be a hit. Mild dots are one of my big things and how they are used to range targets or establish target sizes. Throw in a dose of trigonometry and you have most of my secrets.
 
My approach to shooting is also quite mental, in a good way BTW, in that prep of he brain really pays off. A bit of self esteem/ego that can be pulled up and not be bruised too badly when things don't go perfectly well. I sure didn't develop it but I've found that over time lots of things can be improved with the right set of thoughts. I learned it early on bowling for money. I don't always get solidly into the mind set as much as I should but it's in there.If you read the little vignette on my shooting the groups with the 6X6.8 the other day when the SWAT boys started to watch I can tell you I dug deep that day and buzzers get me into hyper-drive. It's there when you develop and have success with it over time.  
 
This is a little clip that only takes a bit of substitution to apply to us. If I could teach you all one thing this would be it. It was a huge changeling teaching my classes for M/o's, snipers,  over the years with younger guys with some experience but no real foundation in precision shooting. They rarely had the mind set when they got to class and other than the dry math I tried to get them to transcend to that level. Those testosterone charged young studs had to be gentled down to produce on demand and I like to think that they left with the wisdom and experience of the Gene Wilder looking guy who was just a nurse.
 

 
Just some thoughts that are a tad of topic.  Now if you'll excuse me I have 300 cases that need filling.
 
Greg

I paint with a crayon outside the lines.
My approach is also mental but in the mentally handicapped way.
But any who, I can read a book from front to back and recite the contents verbatim, wont really understand it until I can use it in real life application or go hands on. So I bumblefuck my way through it.


#24 ONLINE   GLShooter

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Posted May. 16 2018 - 09:41 PM

Yep. Hands on does wonders in generating Ah Ha moments. Contextual application is a heck of a learning tool. It's like drop tables are just math and many guys I taught just couldn't wrap their heads around MOA drops and turret adjustments until I got down on my belly and showed them. Five for five on an 8" plate at 650 with their rifle and their dope made a very convincing demonstration of application of theory.

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#25 ONLINE   Retcop

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Posted May. 16 2018 - 10:47 PM

Well I believe I'll stick with what's worked best for ME ,as others agree with the principles ...

 

http://www.rifleshoo...elbreak_200809/

 

http://www.rifleshoo...k-rifle-barrel/

 

The first article is written by a guy who is trying to sell you his own special bullet that has some kind of grit on it to

get all the "tool marks" out of your barrel. 

 

He's trying to sell you something, brother. 




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#26 ONLINE   GLShooter

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Posted May. 17 2018 - 09:07 AM

 
The first article is written by a guy who is trying to sell you his own special bullet that has some kind of grit on it to
get all the "tool marks" out of your barrel. 
 
He's trying to sell you something, brother. 

 
Trust me David Tubb is NOT going to do fire lapping on his new $600.00 Krieger.   The process is good for a Hail May on an old bore of dubious smoothnes or one that has just never shot right and it;'s either pull it or shoot it.
 
I have read several well done tests that they shot the bullets in and documented the movement forward of the throat/leade. Wear characteristics  show induced movement of 500-1000 bullets down the bore.
 
To illustrate how nasty even some new barrels are here are some shots of a NEW barrel I bought to test as it interested me.  I had some suspicions on the manufacturer and the bore scope showed it.
 
This is the area by the port . Noticed those long nice lines? Not good!!
 
bCbNAYA.jpg
 
This is the bore about 10 inches in front of the chamber. Notice what looks like finger prints?  There's a really good reason why I wold never recommend one of these barrels to anyone.  Two different bores have been checked and both are about the same.
 
eL4rYWf.jpg
 
I MIGHT consider fire lapping a tad on something like thsi but in fairness I would shoot it a bit. Sometimes looks aren't everything in performance but I know I'd rather drive a Corvette than a rust bucket 56 Studebaker.
 
Greg
 
PS: No amount of shooting would take all this out though I bet it would full up with copper quickly  but then files do work well on soft metal if you want to fill in the teeth.


#27 OFFLINE   BushXM15

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Posted May. 17 2018 - 10:58 AM

You're kind of being a jerk here. You asked what we (other members) do, I offered an opinion. You countered that and offered up opinions supporting your argument. I decided not to argue, and simply said you do your thing, I'll do mine. Now you suggest my opinion is "fiction and tales", and yours is obviously "facts with proven results"? This is the kind of crap that made gmor almost a pariah around here. His opinion is the only correct one based in "fact", everyone else is simply spewing lies and hate. 

 

Don't be a gmor. 

 

Pepper, on 14 May 2018 - 6:44 PM, said:snapback.png

More barrels have been worn out or damaged by cleaning than ever have been shot out. A quick wet patch to clean any dust/dirt/grease leftover from the rifling process, a dry patch to ensure it's clean, then go shoot for groups.

 

Personal attacks are prohibited. .




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#28 ONLINE   Retcop

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Posted May. 17 2018 - 05:58 PM

 
Trust me David Tubb is NOT going to do fire lapping on his new $600.00 Krieger.   The process is good for a Hail May on an old bore of dubious smoothnes or one that has just never shot right and it;'s either pull it or shoot it.
 
I have read several well done tests that they shot the bullets in and documented the movement forward of the throat/leade. Wear characteristics  show induced movement of 500-1000 bullets down the bore.
 
To illustrate how nasty even some new barrels are here are some shots of a NEW barrel I bought to test as it interested me.  I had some suspicions on the manufacturer and the bore scope showed it.
 
This is the area by the port . Noticed those long nice lines? Not good!!
 
bCbNAYA.jpg
 
This is the bore about 10 inches in front of the chamber. Notice what looks like finger prints?  There's a really good reason why I wold never recommend one of these barrels to anyone.  Two different bores have been checked and both are about the same.
 
eL4rYWf.jpg
 
I MIGHT consider fire lapping a tad on something like thsi but in fairness I would shoot it a bit. Sometimes looks aren't everything in performance but I know I'd rather drive a Corvette than a rust bucket 56 Studebaker.
 
Greg
 
PS: No amount of shooting would take all this out though I bet it would full up with copper quickly  but then files do work well on soft metal if you want to fill in the teeth.

 

I don;t doubt a word of want you just taught me, and thank you. 

But in the first link Bush posted the author

 talks about breaking in barrels, then he moves right in to talking about his special product.

It is not marked "advertisement".  It's part of the article.




#29 ONLINE   GLShooter

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Posted May. 17 2018 - 06:54 PM

David is probably the preeminent shooter in the world taking over where Gary Anderson left off. He has a company supplying parts for the HP crowd and does like anyone tend to be a bit of a salesman.  On a good day I could beat him if he had blinders on and had casts on both arms. 

 

It is fascinating reading across the net about what guys think works fro them and what is "necessary" but the biggest bugaboo is that two"identical barrels made back to back can be totally different how they respond. I happen to have three 243 LBC's all done with the same reamer, not a duplicate the SAME, and they do shoot quite close to each other but you know there are times like the Federal Gold Medal Match we find a load that just shoots well in many rifles across the board. We have a load for them that plus or minus 0.2 grains of 8208 that turns any of them into a hammer with a 95 SMK. The same thing with the 6X6.8 and a 58 and 8208. Unreal.

 

As a rule of thumb I just do what the barrel says. I'll never convince one of those tubes to do it my way.

 

Greg




#30 ONLINE   towtruck

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Posted May. 18 2018 - 06:43 PM

I have three barrels that came with instructions to break them in. With that said I never did it. I shot them each many times before their first cleaning.......like.... around 100 or more shots each. Two of those barrels have over 4k rounds each on them. At 3k rounds they still laid down bug hole groups......and currently they are still performing very well. The third barrel has around 500 rounds and is performing like the first two did. 

 

Those barrels have only seen cleanings after 500-800 rounds. First heavy cleaning at 800 rounds there was a little copper fouling. Every cleaning since has yielded very little copper.  

 

If breaking one in is what you want to do I say go for it......I actually started out to break mine in and forgot my cleaning kit each time. Now that I have shot three without a break in I wont think twice about not breaking in one again.




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#31 ONLINE   Retcop

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Posted May. 18 2018 - 06:57 PM

It seems to me that IF you are going to break in a barrel, it is more important 

to do it with a non-premium barrel than with one that comes hand lapped

and smooth as a baby's bottom in the first place.

 

Is this valid ? 




#32 ONLINE   GLShooter

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Posted May. 18 2018 - 07:11 PM

It seems to me that IF you are going to break in a barrel, it is more important 

to do it with a non-premium barrel than with one that comes hand lapped

and smooth as a baby's bottom in the first place.

 

Is this valid ? 

 

Probably closer than you realize. I happen to know a little bit about what McMillan did on his own guns, I have more than one bechrest shooter in my friends, and how he got great performance out of his barrels and how the top dogs have more cleaning gear on the bench than you and I could ever imagine.  I also happen to knwo a bit about the BHW process and why they so often shot so well.  I'll just leave it at that.

 

Greg


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#33 OFFLINE   newbe

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Posted May. 18 2018 - 07:26 PM

It seems to me that IF you are going to break in a barrel, it is more important 
to do it with a non-premium barrel than with one that comes hand lapped
and smooth as a baby's bottom in the first place.
 
Is this valid ? 

I've never broken in any barrel. I don't think any of them have ever been hand lapped either.

Savage, Anderson, PSA, BHW, S&W, Delton, Remington, Marlin, Ruger, etc, etc...

Most if not all will shoot sub MOA, many sub half MOA.

I see no need to change what I'm doing at least at this point in time.
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#34 OFFLINE   xSmokey

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Posted Jun. 14 2018 - 01:26 PM

Honestly, I don't' know but I feel like 100-500 rounds should clean all the machining junk out and make the rifling uniform and everything.




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#35 ONLINE   Retcop

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Posted Jun. 14 2018 - 02:23 PM

If I ever own a precision bolt action rifle and am on a quest for ultimate accuracy, 

I would most likely follow the barrel maker's instructions, unless they are obviously unreasonable.

As GL Shooter points out, these directions are going to vary widely, just look at BHw polygonal instructions

compared to other brands types of rifling. One thing I would not do is use an abrasive polishing compound on the bore that is

brand new. I consider these products to be made for older barrels which may be showing a loss in accuracy,or have been neglected, but that is nothing more than

personal opinion. 

 

I am not trying to put words in Pepper's mouth, but since I believe the same thing about "over cleaning" a rifle bore,

I think it should be added that it is not always the easiest thing to properly clean a rifle bore, and in my experience the 

smaller the caliber the harder it is to get it right. The bottom line is that it is takes time, some relatively expensive gear,

and a lot of patience to properly clean a rifle barrel. These break in schedules that have you cleaning after every shot for a lot of rounds

seem to approach waterboarding in the torture arena.

 

Some guys are using segmented rods instead of popping for a solid rod.

I have solid rods for my .308 and .223. Then I read I should be using a coated rod, because it the rod touches the barrel, my accuracy is gone for life.(yeah,right)  Bit it is something you need to avoid at all costs. You should to be using bore guides, and I have them for my M1A match barrel. Then I read that the coated rod can leave some coating material behind, and if you shoot with plastic coating in there, you have mucked things up but good.  I believe the improper cleaning of precision barrels can noticeably impact accuracy for those seeking that single hole. For the rest of use mere mortals, a lille common sense and, extra care, better equipment, and moderation are most likely going to be your best bet. 

 

I think this is one of many issues in the shooting world that come down to personal preference, and it is inappropriate to say this is absolutely wrong, or that is absolutely right.  I do know many barrels have been mucked up using improper technique and tools. Personally, If I followed some of these slow motion break in cleaning schedules, they would probably be taking me home from the range in a straight jacket. 

Another personal preference thing is bore snakes, especially in small calibers. I also once thought they were the best thing since sliced bread, but then I started reading about grit getting on the bore snake and putting scratches in the barrel. If you use them, you should clean them often, otherwise you are redepositing gunk. What's the truth? I really don't know, because I started thinking about what kind of grit would you have to have that would be hard enough to scratch the hard barrel material. I honest don't know.

 

The bottom line, Break-in how you like, like how you break-in


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#36 OFFLINE   MadeInUSA

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Posted Jun. 14 2018 - 06:41 PM

Sorry, but ive never had a gun that I could out shoot. My problem is the dumb arse behind the trigger.


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#37 ONLINE   GLShooter

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Posted Jun. 14 2018 - 07:18 PM

LOL I have.

Greg





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